This is a helper post to the main analysis of C/MD, going through an analysis of the Pathfinder RPG (First edition, not second one). You could see this as a template for analyzing other gaming systems. I also analyze some of the common objections to the existence of C/MD.
The actual core of this problem is not in the explicitly given abilities given to martial and caster characters, but in the aesthetics of power in DnD. Martial characters become mechanically strong enough that they can fight 20 normal men at once and win, but are repeatedly stated to be "mortal," despite the obvious evidence to contrary. They are demigods at the mechanical linear definitions of combat, but are considered 'normal' on all other axes. This is what actually causes the problem described in your post.
No feat of strength can ever be as effective as standing and hitting because doing so would destroy the aesthetic that DnD is going for. You cannot emulate folklore and lasso a tornado, or meaningfully pull off non-combat like throwing a log and then jumping on top of it as a form of travel. Meanwhile, you will singlehandedly slay a 30-foot giant because that involves standing and hitting. If you're lucky, you may be able to spend 3 wuxiapoints to teleport behind the giant and slash its tendons. This will have no implications outside of standing and hitting.
Asymmetrically, there is no such limitation on casters. Nothing they do has been aesthetically deemed "mundane" by the creators in the same way that punching someone with the same force as a stick of TNT is "mundane," so they can do the non-linear bullshit you have described.
In folklore, there is no such asymmetry, because there is no clear divide between the magical and mundane. The man who is riding on his flying sword? He does that because he's just that good with swords. The man who wrestled a river to wash a stable? He's just that good at wrestling. If you allow this, then you both naturally solve this problem and the setting makes more metaphysical sense. There's still some weirdness, but that can be solved by making every character an actual caster instead of giving them narrow caster abilities that are embedded in their class, yet are considered non-magical for some reason. Of course I don't take fall damage! No, that Isn't magical! I'm level 7! I'm not a demigod, I'm just a guy!
I really think you should specify in this post (and some others) that you refer to Pathfinder First Edition, and not the modern Pathfinder Second Edition that came out in 2019. The caster-martial disparity problem in particular has been improved in pf2e according to many people, though mostly in combat (IMO), and not always appeasing everyone.
While I overall agree with the points, I think charm person is massively overrated, or at least can be run in such a way that it is not problematic.
At least when I've played in games, the way I'm used to it working is:
- People can see you casting the spell, and casting mind-affecting magic is a serious crime in civilization.
- Targets know when the effect ends that they were charmed.
- If a target makes their save, they know that they passed a Will save.
- If a target makes their save and knows you just cast a spell on them, they probably want you dead now.
This basically means that charm person is only useful when you are interacting with one humanoid with no witnesses, who you are willing and able to kill or at least completely cut ties with after the duration ends or in the event they make their save.
Meanwhile, mundane diplomacy (which of course can still be done by casters who have ranks in the skill, it's not somehow unique to martials) has much less disastrous consequences on a failure/room for partial successes.
The actual core of this problem is not in the explicitly given abilities given to martial and caster characters, but in the aesthetics of power in DnD. Martial characters become mechanically strong enough that they can fight 20 normal men at once and win, but are repeatedly stated to be "mortal," despite the obvious evidence to contrary. They are demigods at the mechanical linear definitions of combat, but are considered 'normal' on all other axes. This is what actually causes the problem described in your post.
No feat of strength can ever be as effective as standing and hitting because doing so would destroy the aesthetic that DnD is going for. You cannot emulate folklore and lasso a tornado, or meaningfully pull off non-combat like throwing a log and then jumping on top of it as a form of travel. Meanwhile, you will singlehandedly slay a 30-foot giant because that involves standing and hitting. If you're lucky, you may be able to spend 3 wuxiapoints to teleport behind the giant and slash its tendons. This will have no implications outside of standing and hitting.
Asymmetrically, there is no such limitation on casters. Nothing they do has been aesthetically deemed "mundane" by the creators in the same way that punching someone with the same force as a stick of TNT is "mundane," so they can do the non-linear bullshit you have described.
In folklore, there is no such asymmetry, because there is no clear divide between the magical and mundane. The man who is riding on his flying sword? He does that because he's just that good with swords. The man who wrestled a river to wash a stable? He's just that good at wrestling. If you allow this, then you both naturally solve this problem and the setting makes more metaphysical sense. There's still some weirdness, but that can be solved by making every character an actual caster instead of giving them narrow caster abilities that are embedded in their class, yet are considered non-magical for some reason. Of course I don't take fall damage! No, that Isn't magical! I'm level 7! I'm not a demigod, I'm just a guy!
I really think you should specify in this post (and some others) that you refer to Pathfinder First Edition, and not the modern Pathfinder Second Edition that came out in 2019. The caster-martial disparity problem in particular has been improved in pf2e according to many people, though mostly in combat (IMO), and not always appeasing everyone.
A good read! I'll share this with some friends.
While I overall agree with the points, I think charm person is massively overrated, or at least can be run in such a way that it is not problematic.
At least when I've played in games, the way I'm used to it working is:
- People can see you casting the spell, and casting mind-affecting magic is a serious crime in civilization.
- Targets know when the effect ends that they were charmed.
- If a target makes their save, they know that they passed a Will save.
- If a target makes their save and knows you just cast a spell on them, they probably want you dead now.
This basically means that charm person is only useful when you are interacting with one humanoid with no witnesses, who you are willing and able to kill or at least completely cut ties with after the duration ends or in the event they make their save.
Meanwhile, mundane diplomacy (which of course can still be done by casters who have ranks in the skill, it's not somehow unique to martials) has much less disastrous consequences on a failure/room for partial successes.